14
Nov
POLYUREA SPF Chemistry
Our topic today is SPF Chemistry Makes it a Safe Product. My guest is Dr. George Thompson, president and CEO of Chemical Compliance Systems Inc. Dr. Thompson has a Ph.D. in toxicology and pharmacology. He has 14 years of experience in industrial hazard and risk assessments, environmental evaluations, and product development. He
has published 21 hazardous chemical books and 39 technical research articles, hosted worldwide and three national safety health conferences, and has trained over a thousand 10,000 excuse me 10,,000 empemployeese’ss been an expert witness for legal cases involving SPF, he recently gave a presentation at 2018 SPF a convention entitled SPF chemistry makes it a safe product welcome dr. Thompson, thank you very much.
It’s a a pleasure to be with you you indeed appear to be highly qualified to help us understand how SPF chemistry makes it a safe product what prompted you to write this particular the presentation I’ve been an expert witness in four lawsuits against SPF manufacturers installers and distributors and the sources of information for those lawsuits for the plaintiffs have always been the Internet where there is misinformation about SPF and so for those in the industry I wanted them to understand enough about the chemistry at least in layman’s terms that they could appreciate that they are installing a safe product but there are concerns for the employees they’re employees that they need to be protected and so it was to give a balanced picture based upon the science of chemistry and toxicology well this is undoubtedly good news for the SPF industry in your presentation, you mentioned that all chemicals could be hazardous but prudent management and the use to reduce or eliminate the risks so in other words if you use it in ways that are proper and appropriate, you’re going to reduce or eliminate your risks so when we talk about something being toxic, you say that it’s a matter of dosage or how much a person is exposed to a particular substance can you talk more about this yes that’s true of anything that’s made of chemicals is that the dose makes the poison and we’re aware of that because if we look at things that we commonly use that have hazards associated with them in an example of our medicines are designed to have toxic effects that are sometimes how they cure think of an antibiotic that’s how it’s yours the disease but because we control the dose the frequency that we take the antibiotic and the duration that we take it then we control what effect that has, and if we follow the proper procedures then it prevents and cures disease and with SPF it’s the same thing it’s the dose that makes the poison, so if you’re looking at the side you want to be very cautious with that, and the employees that work with it because of that has a hazard associated with it when you go to the far extreme, and you have the cured SPF article after 24 or 48 hours then that risk is gone okay that’s that’s fascinating that is information I think anybody in the SPF industry should understand well it also applies to foods we eat there are poisons and foods arsenic, for example, is in potatoes but because it’s in tiny concentrations, and we vary our diet poisonous, mmm but if we took it in high doses then it would be very much a a negative effect on our nutrition health okay so it’s the same idea with SPF if used correctly and you understand how to educate your customer then you should be fine yes okay and according to your presentation it’s you said that most legal cases against SPF were initiatedbecause of complaints surrounding the installation of SPF so what are the issues surrounding the facility the process that becomes a legal issue well there’s a hierarchy of what I call root causes when I do expert witness work I do a root cause analysis, and I say what was the original what is the initial complaint what are the health effects they’re being alleged and as you track down into tears what was it that could have caused those and when I first got involved with these legal cases with SPF what I found as I worked out to the root the cause is that there wasn’t anything in the chemistry that could cause that, but if there were a fault it would routinely be that it wasn’t appropriately installed when he gets to the Installer and the original raw materialsthat was used. It’s essential, for example, that the consumer is not around during the installation. That’s the easiest way to ensure they’re not exposed; therefore, the dose is zero’. It’s known they can’t be exposed to a hazardous or a toxic level if they’re not there, and then the worker of the course has to be appropriately suited up in personal protective equipment so that
he’s not exposed, okay, all right? So, what are some things that you think contractors should do to protect themselves against legal action from a customer? The contractor that does the actual installation will get most of his technical information from the manufacturer, so it’s essential that the manufacturer first does prudent work in the sense that they evaluate all of the aspects of the SPF life
I go from side a to be the cure in SPSPF to the cured SPF. So if they have that information analyzed and reports provided to distributors and installers and safety data sheets for the entire system, then the Installer needs to be trained and conscious of that information; I would reckon one of the things that I recommend to installers Parashat they avoid any a potential customer that has asthma known chemical sensitivities or COPD breathing problems because of those all of the cases that I’ve been involved are people that fall in one of those categories and so if that’s the first rule the second rule.
is that they’re people who are doing the installation, and the sales staff are properly trained so that they understand the hazards, the risks, and the no-risks
with SPF, and they can properly explain that to their potential customers, yes, because sometimes they’re
the first line of communication I don’t want to be different
expectations from the customer versus the Installer or his salesman, and then it’s also essential that the installers follow proper procedures, maintain detailed records, including photographs, and monitor the project after the installation to make sure that it has all of the appearances of proper Well, I know a few contractors who have a document that they have their customer’s sign that says that they have read and understood that it’s important for them to vacate the premises for either 24 to 48 hours and
they have that customer sign it. What do you think about it? What’s one of the sharp pieces of evidence that would
Protect the whole chain of command, the Installer the distributor, in the manufacturer in a lawsuit is that if a
customer sign that that’s strong evidence that they knew and were properly informed, but the cases that
I’ve been involved with but didn’t have, so it is one of the early indications of a lawsuit’s potential. If you take the two, if you take off a customer who has sensitivity, say has asthma,
you don’t tell him about the effects, or even if you do tell him about the effects potential effects and you don’t document it, they’re liable to take you to court and say, oh they didn’t tell me yeah, so a simple piece of paper could
solve a lot yes absolutely okay now what can contractors do to protect themselves legally we’ll say an employee develops a sensitivity to SPF of what are some what’re some things that the contractor could plan or do in advance to dissuade that possibility well one of the things that’s critical when we talk about SPF is what do we mean by that mm-hmm and in a lawsuit the plaintiff, the homeowner, is going to say the when they use the term SPF they you almost always involve the side mm-hmm
Because that’s the most hazardous component. Okay, but if the customer is not there during the installation, they’re never exposed to the side, so we have to be careful here what language was used because there is an
Aside and a B side, a curing SPF, and a cured SPF, when we talk about SPF in the industry, we’re talking about the
finished cured SPF, oh okay, I’m talking about the side; we’re not talking about the B side because we use those terms to talk about the components that go into making SPF, and there’s tremendous confusion in the industry, not in the industry, but in in the customer market
Place about what it is SPF, and if you go on the Internet and look up SPF, you’ll find that all of the negative stuff is
about the side now, workerss mworkersareful ofthe sideof theause they can become sensitized if they don’t wear the proper personal protective equipment and the air-supplied respirators and keep themselves from being exposed. Then they can become
sensitized to that, and that’s a lifelong sensitization, so the workers must protect themselves and ensure that the customer is not present when this stuff is being installed so that there
is zero exposure, right? So yes if a company is putting all the proper safety into effect and they’re documenting things, they should not have an issue you brought up a very good point that I want to emphasize a little more. You mentioned the difference between cured and curing so I think we need for our listeners anyway that we
need to distinguish the difference between curing and cured. That’s a very good point, so when the Installer is
shooting the mist of the mixture into the wall or the ceiling roof applying it, it’s going on there as a reacting mixture mm-hmm, and it swells up, and that swelling up is a chemical reaction where there are air bubbles if you will or some form of gas that’s making the cells in the SPS
mm-hmm but after a few minutes that swelling stops mm-hmm but there are still, chemical reactions going on for
the next few hours, it could be one-two, or three hour,s and the curing process continues thinks of this now as, let’s say it’s 2 or 3 inches thick reactions are going still at the base of that installation when the surface of it has already got a film on it, and you can touch it, and it doesn’t stick to you you know those reactions are completed, but as you move into the depth of the SPF the reactions are continuing, and that’s partly why you wait for the homeowner to come back in 24 or 48 hours so that the full depth of that the reactions have stopped to know that the curing SPF is still having reactions ongoing and there are more chemical constituents in curing SPF and there are in the cured SPF where reactions have stopped so once the product is cured then essentially the chemical reaction stops, and it’s the side at that point and the B side as well there once they are cured there is no there’s no residual there’s nothing that anybody could come incontact with that would be considered toxic in any way. No the way that works is that the side reacts with the B side yes and forms this cure or curing or cured SPF H, and so in that context, when you have the cured SPF, it’s a solid material. Think of it as a plastic mm-hmm or think of thisas a sponge that you use in the kitchen to wash dishe. It’sIto,lid just like the song,e and so in that context,t when you touch the surface of I,t there is no reaction
there mm-hmm, but there are cells in it. They’re small in some cases microscopic cells if there if it’s closed cells
and if you cut into it, then those cells can have some residual chemicals in them, but they can’t come out through the top plastic, or if they come out, it’s at such
a low rate, you can’t detect it okay and so it’s not of any concern, but the the the surface of it is safe to touch and much of the components inside
ER at such low concentration because of these microscopic holes, there’s not much
Thechemicalsl in ther,e mm-hm,m andalmostt all of the chemicals have reacted to make that plastic cand,y what we call SPF or spray polyurethane foam. No, thank you for that, yes, you know, it reminds me of what if you were talking about, sa,y a water molecule or h2o which is comprised of hydrogen and oxygen it’s you wouldn’t want to drink a glass of hydrogen gas but once it’s combined with the oxygen it’s perfectly safe to drink, and we all drink it every day yes and those and in the context of the reactions to make water with the hydrogen and oxygen and
Water has three different chemicals, so hydrogen isn’t water
Oxygen is water, but when you chemically react to them, you make water, which is different and has different effects that are the same. The same thing is true with side A and side B. There are two different mixtures of chemicals. When you put those two mixtures together, what comes out as SPF is different.
The product is okay, so now, what is your stance on the B side?
Chemical just as itself we’ve talked a lot about the ISO or side.
About the B side, the B side, by nature, is less concerned than the side.
Because of the chemicals that are used and their effects as pure chemicals
Mm-hmm so there’s significantly less concern on the B side than there is on
The side, but then some components on the B side can cause
Irritation kinds of effects, irritating wheezing things if you’re exposed to
Them and particularly in the manufacture of the B side, where you’re working with concentrated things like amines, but those materials are retained in the SPF cells at such small microscopic levels that, one, they don’t escape out of the cells after the curing process are completed and two, the amounts that are there are so low that they wouldn’t cause adverse health effects very good, all right Thank you for that so well
What is the best way for companies to document that they have done all the
Things that they should be doing to protect themselves well are the first thing
The very first thing they do before they even get a customer is that they need to train their installers and sales staff They need to understand something about the chemistry the installers need to understand it because they need to
Protect themselves, both of them need to understand it so they can explain it to the customer, the salesman in closing the ,deal and the Installer
In the process of doing the installation, they don’t want to be
Knowledgeable enough that they can keep the customers from being exposed. Part of the way they do that is by making
sure they have the safety data sheets from the manufacturer on each of these
so they can refer the customers to them,m or refer the customer to them.
They need to maintain what they have done with pictures.
So because if you go to a lawsuit, the picture’s worth a thousand words
They will literally be in court, and then, as you indicated, they need these detailed records if they have a signed document from the homeowner.
They recognize they’re not supposed to be in the home for at least 24 or 48 hours.
Hours, and the process also indicates that they have had the chemistry to
Explain to them in layman’s terms that between the pictures and the signed
Documents; they’re very, very effective, but the installers also need to annually
Monitor their employees for any potential health effects, and in all cases, I recommend that they carry liability insurance for those unfortunate circumstances where lawsuits evolve because they can be very expensive Well, I think that everything
You’re telling our listeners today is so crucial and critical and can save
Them so much you know and headaches, the potential loss I just .think that you
Know that this is information that everybody should know how important our
SPF certifications help protect oneself legally in almost every case.
The plaintiff’s attorney and the customer’s attorney are going to ask.
The Installer when they’re deposed, when they’re questioned, mm-hmm, are you
Certified I’m the first to question mm-hmm, and they’re going to want to see the
Certification, mm-hmm who gave it and what when and they’ll ask some detailed
Questions about what was in the certification course because what
What they’re trying to do in front of the judge or jury is let the jury see
Whether this Installer knows what he’s talking about, yeah, so that’s the purpose of the certification training courses, which is to make them aware so that they can protect themselves and their customers, but that’s that certification
This is the first document that they’re going to ask for It’s really strengthened if the sales staff, when they’re interviewed, because they will be the resident or the customers, can afford sale They didn’t tell me any of this stuff but if they have the signed document and the salesman, when he’s in the depot, can say, here’s all the stuff I was certified in, and I told the customer, then it undermines the inherent financial risk for the employer.
Yes, and I also want to clarify, you know, it isn’t just certifications or maybe
Accreditations, while those are important, it could also be documented training or other types of education that are documented as well something like that
This kind of document should be adequate as well. It would be adequate, but what what comes across is that you should remember each of these participants in an installation, which can be the installer and his assistant, the sales.
Staff, the project manager, mm-hmm all of the levels in this process are going to
be deposed mm-hmm by the plaintiff’s attorney
Mmm, including the distributor and the manufacturer, they will have people who
Are deposed, and so it’s important in those depositions that when the
Attorneys ask for detailed questions.estions Think about whether it is chemistry or health effects
or protection processes with signage or documentation that thecommunications are given to the customer, all of that
Stuff becomes evidence in the court mm-hmm, and so the more certifications
That is had in that chain within the whole industry, and the easier it is to
Win the cases, oh very good Okay, so um, your experiences in court, let’s say in a
Lawsuit: how do you demonstrate that SPF chemistry makes it a safe product? I know that you have some extensive PowerPoint presentations and you have tried to get the word out in several ways. This could be something that you would want people to come to your website to lea.rn more about I’m just not sure how deep of a quest,on I’m asking so I don’t know how you might
I want to respond to this right now. First of all, it’s essential that.
Everybody in the business, including the customer, understands what we mean by SPF and, and within that concept of spray polyurethane foam, there’s A-sideide, there’s a B side there’s curing SPF source reactions that are still taking place
And there are cured SPF and what the customer is exposed to if they’re not
Coming in within 24 or 40 hours is the cured SPF mm-hmm, and so it’s it’s
Critical that chemistry is understood, and when I have participated
As an expert on these lawsuits, I simply keep focusing because what the opposing
What attorneys trying to do is talk about the dangers of a side, but that’s
not what the customers exposed to the cured SPF there
Is there no azide left? Yes, because it’s reactive Munich, yes yes so when you
Communicate that chemistry to a judge or jury, they can understand the importance
Of semantics here in the language of the process mm-hmm, and it’s straightforward to prove in a court of law that cured SPF
Is safe, thank you, particularly when you acknowledge that the side’s hazardous
Which it is; it’s hazardous and anybody exposed to it, whether it’s a
Worker or the resident so you don’t want those people exposed.
A worker wears complete protective personal protective equipment.
The resident shouldn’t be there when there’s any SP aside and that usually is
Gone within the first one to three hours, they can’t detect it anymore, so the
Chemistry speaks for itself, but you have to focus on the chemistry, whether you’re
talking about making SPF safe for you or workers, talking about weight
Making SPF safe for the residents and the homeowner—hmm, it’s about
Making sure the chemistry is done properly and all procedures are are
Properly followed by all parties. Thank you, Dr. Thompson. This
Has been a fascinating topic,c and I’m sure it’s tremendously worthwhile to
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